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View Full Version : Bosch Oxygen Sensors C36 AMG 1997 - Performance



JG26_Irish
10-21-2005, 07:18 AM
Greetings,

I have a 1997 MB C36 AMG. USA car. Awesome car! unbelieveable bottom end for a little straight six. Recently, got a yellow check engine light and a slight loss of bottom end engine performance at partial throttle (1-25%). Called dealer and took car in that day for analysis. ECU codes said that oxygen (OE) sensor was at fault. Dealer reset codes and we decided to drive it a few days and see if we had a repeat.

About three days later, the same code repeated and was again reset at MB dealer and two new Bosch OE sensors ordered. On the way home, I remembered the advice of my Porsche mechanic to periodically run a bottle of techron thru the car to keep oxygen sensor clean and injectors working right. Before, that the engine performance was mostly normal but occasionally repeated the loss of lowend response. Ran a bottle of Techron thru one tank of gas over about a 1-week period with liberal full throttle use whenever possible. After about 2-3 days full engine performance was restored and car ran normal for the next three weeks. Smoked one new Mustang on top end and got smoked by one bad V8 SS Camero with substantial engine mods (yeah, I know dumb to pick on a tiger , lol). Overall, I was pleased with how the car was running.

Dealer called to let me know the sensors were in and we had then installed two days ago. Car was normal going in. When returned to me the lowend throttle response was poor, just as it had been when the first code was experienced??? What's up with that? We went back to the dealer who rechecked and verified that the codes had been cleared and the the sensors calibrated and that all was installed correctly, the part numbers were right, etc. I still have the old sensors. Car was test driven and still seems sluggish at partial throttle (<25%) and instead of accellerating smartly, it pulls weakly and eventually downshifts to accellerate (less than normal). Needless to say, I am not pleased at the moment.

MB Dealer is checking with his technical rep and asking them to check with AMG for trouble shooting advice. I am checking with the rest of the world. Questions:

1.) Is it possible for a new OE sensor to harm engine performance?

2.) Does a Bosch OE Sensor (these appear to be two different heated type units) require a few heat cycles to perform correctly?

3.) What should we be looking for to trouble shoot the loss of engine performance? I have not driven it long enough to check fuel mileage.

4.) Full throttle peformance seem more or less normal. Still that is harder to judge since it is hard to find clear places to really turn it loose and even when I do, there are not good references to judge by. If I had the Mustang owner handy that might help

5.) Have others had this problem? or what sort of symptoms appeared when OE sensors failed?

My symptoms again, sluggish engine response to initial throttle from 1-25%. Cruising at moderate pace of about 40-45mph, in 5th gear, normal response to parial throttle was a very responsive, very torquey rapid accelleration usually without downshift unless throttle was applied very rapidly. Now I get a weaker response, less accelleration and more often than not a downshift to 4th or even 3rd gear as the engine fails to accellerate and the ECU tries to compensate with a downshift. That is not normal and only reappeared after OE sensor replacement.

Help?

Irish

Renn 208
10-21-2005, 08:14 AM
I know that the focus of your investigation has been on the O2 sensors, and rightly so, but perhaps your MAS is the one to blame? See if a friendly tech would be kind enough to let you swap in a new MAS to see if it's the issue...in any case, good luck.

J Irwan
10-21-2005, 09:05 AM
Irish,

What the mileage currently ?
Do you have aftermaket intake or filter ?

Does the MAS/MAF (Mass Air Sensor/Mass Air Flowmeter) been replaced in the past..

MAS/MAF on our cars is one of the consumable item, after a while it will eventually failed.


Next time you bring it to the dealer, ask them to swap the MAS and see if it make any different (swapping MAS/MAF should be a 5 min job)

Regardz,

jnenad16
10-21-2005, 11:00 AM
when O2 sensors fail, the situation you described is true. this is typical with mercedes. as the oxygen sensor is failing(anywhere from a day to a month), it is unable to read the true oxygen content of the exhaust gases, thus gives the faulty readout to the ecu, and ecu usually enrichens the mixture, and from that you feel the increased performance. now, when the O2 sensors were replaced, the ecu receives the correct readout from the oxygen sensors, and sets the correct mixture, which is unfortunately not up to par with what you would expect.

nenad

Sulaco
10-21-2005, 11:45 AM
Damn, my 94 C280's been doing this lately. It's behaving exactly as it did about 8 months ago before I replaced the spark plugs. Terrible power and almost 0 throttle response on the low end. If I don't brake-torque it at stops to keep the RPM's up, it WILL spit and sputter and kick itself into limp mode. And today as I was cranking it, there was a massive backfire under the hood that burped out a ton of smoke and a gas-odor.

There is no CEL and it's giving no hidden codes.

Could my MAS be so bad it's already fouled out my new spark plugs? Could my O2 sensors (which I think are factory original) be causing this? But there's no CEL...?

benzfan
10-21-2005, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by jnenad16
when O2 sensors fail, the situation you described is true. this is typical with mercedes. as the oxygen sensor is failing(anywhere from a day to a month), it is unable to read the true oxygen content of the exhaust gases, thus gives the faulty readout to the ecu, and ecu usually enrichens the mixture, and from that you feel the increased performance. now, when the O2 sensors were replaced, the ecu receives the correct readout from the oxygen sensors, and sets the correct mixture, which is unfortunately not up to par with what you would expect.

nenad

True, true. This is what is likely causing the problem. I don't know what the dealer meant by "calibrating" the sensor. It can't be calibrated as such, rather the ECU adapts to the sensor over time, through its short term then long term fuel trim. The proper procedure when replacing a sensor is to reset the long term fuel trim (to 0). This can also help when troubleshooting a sensor to see if the long term fuel trim adapts right back to where it was before fixing another suspect part. It is quite useful to know what the numbers were prior to the sensor being replaced, rather than relying simply on the code being set to tell you the sensor is bad. The long term fuel trim can be reset by taking the power off the ECU for a few minutes. Simply unplugging the connector will do this, but if you don't know what you are doing have someone else do it. The connectors are not exactly intuitive, and if you mess something up, it will be expensive.

JG26_Irish
10-22-2005, 05:26 PM
Thanks to all for the replys. If I understand you correctly, the ECU will adapt to the new O2 sensors? How long should that take?

I have had it back for three days and have driven it for two of those (it rained on the 3rd day). By the end of the second day of driving, it seemed to be running better than it ran when I first got it back and almost normal. Between myself and the dealer testing it, we have logged at least 80 miles with at least a dozen start/stop cycles.

As of now it seems to be running more or less right. This was strange and I really did not notice the performance returning to normal until late yesterday.

What is confusing is that whan I asked my dealer if the O@ sensor change would require "breakin time" or some heat cycles before it was working properly, he said no. I have little direct knowledge of how the MB ECU's are programed and how they specifically are set up to function. I do have knowledge of computer systems and even neural network control schemes so, these are not totally foreign subjects.

What I lack is a clear understanding of just how sophisticated (or not) the AMG's 1997 vintage ECU's are. Most automobile manf use the cheapest possible to get the job done. I expect the AMG solution to be just a bit better. :cool:

Irish

dono
10-22-2005, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by JG26_Irish
Greetings,

I have a 1997 MB C36 AMG. USA car. Awesome car! unbelieveable bottom end for a little straight six. Recently, got a yellow check engine light and a slight loss of bottom end engine performance at partial throttle (1-25%). Called dealer and took car in that day for analysis. ECU codes said that oxygen (OE) sensor was at fault. Dealer reset codes and we decided to drive it a few days and see if we had a repeat.

About three days later, the same code repeated and was again reset at MB dealer and two new Bosch OE sensors ordered. On the way home, I remembered the advice of my Porsche mechanic to periodically run a bottle of techron thru the car to keep oxygen sensor clean and injectors working right. Before, that the engine performance was mostly normal but occasionally repeated the loss of lowend response. Ran a bottle of Techron thru one tank of gas over about a 1-week period with liberal full throttle use whenever possible. After about 2-3 days full engine performance was restored and car ran normal for the next three weeks. Smoked one new Mustang on top end and got smoked by one bad V8 SS Camero with substantial engine mods (yeah, I know dumb to pick on a tiger , lol). Overall, I was pleased with how the car was running.

Dealer called to let me know the sensors were in and we had then installed two days ago. Car was normal going in. When returned to me the lowend throttle response was poor, just as it had been when the first code was experienced??? What's up with that? We went back to the dealer who rechecked and verified that the codes had been cleared and the the sensors calibrated and that all was installed correctly, the part numbers were right, etc. I still have the old sensors. Car was test driven and still seems sluggish at partial throttle (<25%) and instead of accellerating smartly, it pulls weakly and eventually downshifts to accellerate (less than normal). Needless to say, I am not pleased at the moment.

MB Dealer is checking with his technical rep and asking them to check with AMG for trouble shooting advice. I am checking with the rest of the world. Questions:

1.) Is it possible for a new OE sensor to harm engine performance?

2.) Does a Bosch OE Sensor (these appear to be two different heated type units) require a few heat cycles to perform correctly?

3.) What should we be looking for to trouble shoot the loss of engine performance? I have not driven it long enough to check fuel mileage.

4.) Full throttle peformance seem more or less normal. Still that is harder to judge since it is hard to find clear places to really turn it loose and even when I do, there are not good references to judge by. If I had the Mustang owner handy that might help

5.) Have others had this problem? or what sort of symptoms appeared when OE sensors failed?

My symptoms again, sluggish engine response to initial throttle from 1-25%. Cruising at moderate pace of about 40-45mph, in 5th gear, normal response to parial throttle was a very responsive, very torquey rapid accelleration usually without downshift unless throttle was applied very rapidly. Now I get a weaker response, less accelleration and more often than not a downshift to 4th or even 3rd gear as the engine fails to accellerate and the ECU tries to compensate with a downshift. That is not normal and only reappeared after OE sensor replacement.

Help?

Irish

manny
10-23-2005, 05:10 AM
Originally posted by JG26_Irish

What I lack is a clear understanding of just how sophisticated (or not) the AMG's 1997 vintage ECU's are. Most automobile manf use the cheapest possible to get the job done. I expect the AMG solution to be just a bit better. :cool:
Irish

Has nothing to do with M-B or AMG.
ALL newer vehicles ( last 10 years or so ) operate on the same principal.
I.e. long term fueltrim, short term fueltrim, adaption, etc.
They ALL have to re-learn, after a problem has been corrected. ;)

JG26_Irish
10-24-2005, 08:47 AM
Quote: "Has nothing to do with M-B or AMG.
ALL newer vehicles ( last 10 years or so ) operate on the same principal. I.e. long term fueltrim, short term fueltrim, adaption, etc.
They ALL have to re-learn, after a problem has been corrected. "

Ok, so how long does it take a MB's ECU to adapt to the new sensors? Two days, a week? more? Just trying to get a handle on what to expect?

manny
10-24-2005, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by JG26_Irish

Ok, so how long does it take a MB's ECU to adapt to the new sensors? Two days, a week? more? Just trying to get a handle on what to expect?

With a variety of driving ( city, highway, etc. ), a reasonable time would be 2 - 3 days. ;)